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TRANSCRIPTS OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR INTERVIEWS (Page 3)
©2000 Jim Terr / Blue Canyon Productions. All Rights Reserved
MADELEINE KESNERThe time I left Belgium with my parents, we had an apartment, furniture and everything, and I didn't know what to take. I said to my husband: "How long are we going to stay"? And he said, "I don't know." He said, "Take clothes for the kids, don't take anything for me because I will go in the Army." And so I took clothes for the baby……We knew we had to start getting out because the Germans started bombing the school right where we are living in the middle of the night. I woke my husband who was still asleep. He was a very good sleeper. I said, "George, get up, they are bombing and the war is started." I had a hard time to wake him up and then we went downstairs and we took the baby and I forgot the bottle, and I say, you'd better get the bottle, we need the bottle." We stayed there until the bombing was a bit less, and he said, "We'd better go to my mother." She had a house near the airport. But then you know that the War started and that it would be….And he told us that they would not take people of the Germans. The War was that we couldn't fight against them.
We are in Belgium, not in the Netherlands. My husband said he talked to the police and they said, "We thought you were gone already a long time.". Because you know the Jews were…….? And that is the first one they are going to bomb and get out. And when we were in the wagons where they put the cows. The train we were in. It was very bad. We didn't have water, we didn't have any toilet. We couldn't wash ourselves for four days and four nights. I couldn't wash the baby. Then the Red Cross came sometimes and gave you a bit of food. We didn't have milk in four days. I didn't know what to feed them. People were fighting for food already. We got one loaf for 20 people and so it was very nice we made it through there. If you had to go, you had to go under the train, or in a can behind a blanket. The men it was easier. When we arrived in France we were very happy. But we didn't know where we arrived. They didn't tell you. And no where what we saw was already standing. And when we stopped, we were standing there. They attacked some of the trains because we were with more than one. They attacked some of the trains already too. So when we arrived there in France we were happy to be there, and it was only a little country place. We couldn't find a place to live together. We lived by the Bixschotelei (Berchem) and my husband had to translate for the people. In Belgium we don't speak French. We all spoke French. That helped.
There were only two barbers. My husband was a barber before, too. And they asked him if he wanted to be a barber and help out. So I helped too. I was expecting five months and I helped to put soap on the men's faces and all that. After a few months when the War was finished in France, we thought of going away from there. We went just in time. Because after we left, they took my mother in camp. They took my sisters in camp, they took my father in camp. And we managed to survive because we went to Switzerland. Two sisters went first and they managed with some boys, and they managed to go to Switzerland. My father didn't want to go because he said, "I promised that I would come back to the camp commander,"and he was going back and that's why he died in Auschwitz. My sister survived the War. They were in camp all of the time in Switzerland to work. Then at a certain time after the War they let you go back to Belgium if you wanted to. We didn't have any idea where we were. Once we were on the door we couldn't write to them. And so when we came to England, I didn't speak a word of English and was expecting my daughter. I was in London in a Hotel, and in the bombing we had the V-1 and V-2. There were very bad blackouts, no TV. Just the radio. I felt very bad and very lonely, and so I wrote my husband and I said, "I want to go to the Country. I don't want to stay in London." And he said "Go to the Country. If you can manage it without speaking a word of English, it is not easy." I did it. I still don't know now how I did it, but I went to the country with my son and with a big tummy and we arrived there, and we went to two places in the country. And while I was in the country there was one place that was only for the women, where the men were all soldiers. Different languages going on there, French, Dutch, German, everything. A guy was there and taught me a bit of English and I was very happy about that.
He teach me too how to save some money and put it in the bank. And after I had my daughter there, all the kids had whooping cough. She was a little baby and the doctor said, "I don't want her to stay here. You'd better get your husband to come and pick her up." And I said to my husband, "bring me to Richmond because it was ¾ of an hour from London. And you had the river and the Cue Gardens, maybe you've heard of them or not. They are beautiful. And I said I can walk with the kids there, and would not feel so lonely.And I stayed there for at least three years. Before, I found an apartment, first I was with a lady and she spoke only English, and I couldn't speak English. Couldn't go to the store and buy bread. Had to show them with my hands that I wanted the bread.
When we were in Tangiers we kept the restaurant for a French woman who wanted to go on vacation. Before that, my son died already, so I only had one baby. He was a handful. He was 1-1/2 years. He was young. I had to keep the keys for the maid because we had soap that was rationed. Everything was rationed. George kept a bar. And I was sitting at night in the bar and the German consul came and sat near me and I tried to get some information. He bought me a drink and that's the way George managed to get that bomb there, because I gave him the information. From Tangiers, it wasn't easy for me either because I couldn't find a job. It was very hard. They didn't tell you that you couldn't work when you were a stranger. And we spent the money we got from the refugees, and we were starving. My husband started smoking. He managed to get a place for me. There was jeunne fille, Catholic. I was the only one coming with a baby and a big tummy. The other were not married-all young girls. I made a good friend there, and she said, "Do you have any clothes for the baby," and I said "No, I have nothing." And she said, " I will try to get you some clothes when the baby is there," and she did. And she sent us to a Jewish lady. And when my husband came there he said, "I am Jew too". She laughed, and said, "How come you managed to get there?" He said, well he was the only one who helped us-the Catholic people. The Jews didn't help us, the Dutch also didn't help us. We came into Casablanca tired, sitting in the train all day with two babies, and changed from the trains and then we came into Calablanca, the consul tried to run away. George went after him through the back door and he said, "Why do you run away from us, you should be here to help us." And he said, "you'd better get out of Casablanca. I didn't ask you to come here. And if you don't tomorrow, I will put you all in prison." That was the Dutch Consul, can you imagine. My husband looked all day long to find a place where we could sleep. And we managed to sleep by the marine.
The Dutch consul tried to run away from us and he told us that we had to leave because otherwise he would put us in prison. We are Dutch and we lived in Belgium, but we were Dutch. My husband had to get papers to go to Africa. He went on the bike to Toulouse and he got a passport. He still has that passport. He can show you, if you want. We didn't have a passport at all. With that passport we managed to go to Africa, but the first ship that came didn't let us on, because we didn't have enough papers. We had to wait for the second ship, and when the ship came, it was a French captain. I was expecting to have my son in my arm, and he said, "Let Madame Go First." My husband said, "That's my wife,". And he looked at me and he looked at the papers and my husband wrote a letter to himself saying that it was my sister who lived there. He said, "this is what I need. You can go." In two minutes we got on that ship, I still didn't have money to get a cabin. There was an English lady and she was really nice. She said to me, "I have a couch in the cabin, you can use that." But I couldn't sleep with the baby in the couch, these small couches, you know, so I didn't sleep all night. George slept outside in a chair and he slept better than me.
Then we arrived in England and it was very difficult for me. And when we went to the country, it was still difficult. My husband picked me up when I had to leave with my daughter.
In England people were very helpful. They tried to tell you that if you were afraid, go to the underground, and go down. But they didn't tell you that the light goes out and have to go down 500 steps, and five months expecting and my son under my arm. I went down all of these steps and then came up and the air raid was finished. After a week I had enough of this and went to the country. For 5 years I lived in Richmond 3 years by a lady. She spoke French. I was lucky…I was looking for an apartment. That lady had a little boy, and I hear that my boy had whooping cough and he had to stay there. And when he got better they called me and they said you can pick up your son. I can't have your son here, I already have two babies and this is my house, so you'd better look for a flat. I had a hard time to find one because in England it was like that, no cats, no dogs, no children, or if you were Jewish or not Jewish. It was very hard. I managed to find a lady, and she spoke French, and I could tell her everything. She said "I would like to rent you the flat because I know you went though a lot," and she rented me the flat, but she charged me quite a bit of money and I didn't have it. She said, "Do you know how to sew?" And I said, "Yes,". And she said, "I have a lot of work for you. I will bring you the sewing machine down, and you can do some sewing for me and pay the rent with that too." And that's what I did. So for a couple of years we were there in England. Blackouts, everything rationed.
We didn't know what was happening to our families in the camps. That was the worst. We only knew when my husband went to Canada. And there he found an Uncle of mine. And he said your father died, told him, my father died in the concentration camp (Auschwitz), and that my mother and my sisters were in Switzerland, and we went back to Belgium then. About four years later we started to know what happened to them.
My daughter was born, and she's a beautiful girl. She will have a birthday and she will be 56, right George? "Fifty Seven," says George. Fifty-seven in November. That picture I showed you was about my two sons. My daughter was born in England. I had a lot of trouble with her. She got sick when she was a baby and I had to take her to the hospital. She had "pink disease". I never heard about it. They call it "pink disease" it's a rash all over your body. She was a year old when she got better.
I think it's terrible that these people say it never happened. I go to the star (sp?) with my husband, and I'm always talking about the War and that we had to run away, and what happened, and how the Germans behaved. I saw a German lady, and she had a family with Jews, and she knows what happened. And she said, "I think it was the worst thing that ever happened in the world, that they can still not see what happened. The people who say it never happened I think they are dumb, because they should know better. If the parents don't teach them they will never know. And that's why they ask us already to talk to the schools here and to tell about it. We went to that school in…..What is the name, George? "Academy"…says George. "Academy," And they asked us if they want us to talk about it. I never did it in my life, I was not a teacher. I talked about it and the kids were so interested, that the second half hour---you know you had a half hour and then you had to change teachers. And the second hour, they wanted to give them another teacher, and they said, "No, we want that lady." So I talked about it, and it was the first time in my life. They were very interested.
For four hours, I had to talk with that consul. He arrested me already. And he said, "Your husband ran away and we want to know where he is." And I say, "I don't know where he is." I suppose I did know more or less that he was in England, but I didn't tell them that. And he said, "Don't tell me that he never told you anything." And I said, "No, he didn't…He didn't want me to get in trouble so he never told me." And that was the truth. So he let me go after four hours interrogating. And then we went to England and we were all interrogated again…..What is that place, George? You said you were there, in England, when we arrived at that school. George says, "Patriotic School." She says: They took another four hours and they asked the same questions to my husband to see if we were telling the truth before they let us in England.
The passport shows George in the Army before the Air Force. This is in Canada, of Princess Margarita. This is my son's grave in Africa. That's a picture of the Dutch Naval Air Service. And that's a passport we got in Toulouse. A xerox copy. There's a stamp from every country that we went that was put in that passport. I had black hair then.
When my husband left Tangiers, you know, they got him out. I was left for two months. I got some letters from him. I didn't know where he was in Gibraltar. I couldn't get out because I had to have a passport….I had to have papers. One day he said to me, "Well, you can make your papers. You are ready to go." So I went to the small ship and when we were going I went with my son who was just one year old. And then they started bombing. And the Germans and the English, and they were fighting, and that ship didn't go. So I had to go back to the hotel where I was living and say to that woman, "well, I will stay another week, and see if another ship will come." And I had the last ship who ever went. After that there was no ship going anymore. And they didn't bring me to Gibraltar because there was only for men in the War. So I went on the Polish ship where 2000 men and 20 women and one baby-that was my son, a year old. And he called everybody "Daddy"…..They were crazy with him. He was spoiled from every one. And I didn't have the food either for him. I needed bananas, I needed things. So we got it from the seamen in Gibraltar. There was a Polish boat, but I didn't speak Polish, so it was hard to make myself understand, but we managed. I had one steward who was keeping my son and he said, "You go dancing, because we need every woman we can get to dance." We were only 20 woman on board and 2000 men and we all came from camps. They all got them out of camps. There were Dutch, French, Belgian, German. And then the boat went after all. And my husband came on the ship just before the boat left. He was a soldier already, so he was in the cabin downstairs, and got seasick…Terrible. I got seasick too. All the men looking after me. They say, "You go in back and we will bring you breakfast." I was spoiled. (laughs)……